some advice would be awesome

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This topic contains 24 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by  nihilith 10 months, 1 week ago.

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  • #3843

    miepsie
    Participant

    Hi there everyone. Sooo,…

    I’m still maining my resto shaman that I’ve been playing intensely but for only a few months now, and while I feel I have a good grasp on a lot of critical situations, Mythic+, how to heal for speed, how to heal when I have no time to regenerate mana, how to split between healing and DPS and how to do emergency burst healing,… I noticed that I fall apart completely in certain fights. ( while I have no problem with just plain “long” fights, I know how to weave healing wave, most times I just don’t have to since I happen to have a lot of crit = mana.. maybe that is a mistake?)

    Those are fights where I think I’m supposed to use more chainheal/cbt for more even and steady low hps raid wide healing, but I just can’t get a grip on it. I’ve started to blame my legendary, but truth be told, it might be I just got so used to having both ascendance and ancestral guidance to play with, that I completely forgot how to do the “boring” steady raid heal.

    At least Warcraft Logs is telling me that on those fights I’m just terrible, and I don’t think it’s just because I don’t get to use my Mastery, since it should compare me to other shamans who would theoretically be in the same situation? or isn’t it?

    The thing that bugs me is that I feel like it takes the same effort to get a 96%+ rating on illgynoth then the effort it takes for me to get anywhere close to 50% on nythendra, or Ursoc, or similar bosses.

    While I don’t mind Ursoc, because I do what needs to be done: Get the whole raid up back into the green ASAP and conserve mana over the rest of the fight, rotating my many cooldowns to do it, I’m not sure what to make of it. It feels like I’m doing my job just as well as on a different fight, but Warcraft logs tells me differently.

    On mythic Renferral tries for example my warcraft logs rating is terrible. Sadly I don’t have a kill to show yet, but my job is burst healing with a lot of downtime in between, and my score doesn’t seem to like it.

    Is Warcraft logs score even relevant? Or should I just check my overheal, my mana usage and be happy with what I see in raid instead of trying to min max some random (HPS/overheal centric?) algorithm that I can’t seem to please unless I play to what it wants me to do instead of what the fight demands.

    Since I’m very new to healing, this is a bit confusing to me. Thanks, would be great if you could shed some light on those issues and tell what you think. Also if you spot anything that you would think I should improve upon, I’d be happy to hear about it.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/15268741/latest#metric=hps

    some HC raid: (they wouldn’t let me solo heal a dragons group because dispells… t_t)

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/gqrFftAjvHb2PXd3

    Renferal wipes:

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/R4xPwmG7NkTtpZFr

    Can’t seem to find any of the nythendra kills. But since my thought process was and still is “keep you mana and cooldowns ready for catching the raid after mindcontrol phases” the logs didn’t really score me well at all. I can’t really spread out my stronger cooldowns “HPS efficiently” if I’m trying to specifically counter boss abilities with them.

    Sadly I have left my old Guild wich was barely raiding for a new one, hoping I could join in on the mythic progression, but we have severe attendance problems. So I can’t actually raid as much as I would like. But I hope those logs are sufficient.

    Thanks a bunch, you guys are awesome!

    EDIT2: Okay I think I should ask a clear question 😀 Why can’t I heal with chainheal!!! As soon as I deviate from riptide+healing surge/wave spam and only using chainheal during ascendance/ancestral guidance, warcraft logs doesn’t like me anymore and my raid performance seems to suffer. What am I missing, it can’t just be a legendary bonus. Or should I just stop caring so much about how that site ranks me?

     

    -Miepsie

    EDIT:

    I have tried a bunch of different trinkets and things, currently this is my loadout

    http://www.wowprogress.com/character/eu/blackhand/Miepsie

     

  • #3851

    miepsie
    Participant

    An introduction into ranking by Halûcinogen

     

    I guess this is still relevant. I didn’t read the article before I made this post, and the differentiation between farm an progress is very obviously the main reason why I see such drops and jumps in my own “performance” rating from boss to boss. I guess we just don’t need that many healers in a lot of fights.

    This one log I guess is a very obvious example:

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/gqrFftAjvHb2PXd3/#type=healing&fight=13

     

    Yet I still ask myself what I could improve during progression, where it actually matters. I’m not sure where CBT fits in right now, and chainheal feels like it would only be worth it to “push” into ascendance or for slow+efficient healing to top off slight raidwide damage… I pretty much only ever use it otherwise when I don’t have riptide off CD, queen ascendant up and no tidal waves buff left… so like once every minute or so during non emergency but still significant raid damage. Or when I want to prepare a heal for damage I know will be coming, where I’m just using it because it’s a big heal with a long cast time that I can start before the damage actually happens. In cases where gift of the queen is on cooldown, since I believe that to be the better spell for those situations… So where is chain heal right now?

  • #3867

    nihilith
    Participant

    I read through both your posts and here is my opinion of course feel free to disagree, throw things at me, hug me, I can take all the things 😀 Joking aside, I think you’ve answered your own question. You’ve highlighted the area where you feel you fall apart, chain heal centric healing and in all honesty if you feel more comfortable running a single target build there is no reason why you shouldn’t. If bosses die and you aren’t holding back progress I see no reason why you couldn’t run a single target build. You will always perform better within your comfort zone.

    However, there are of course a few things to keep in mind. A single target build favours mastery and a chain heal centric build favours crit, then you of course have your hybrid builds which tend to run with mastery. There is great information on the different styles in the Legion hub section.

    Rankings are odd beasts, as you noticed I’m sure. There are so many variables that play into high rankings. For example, there was a heroic Xavius kill I did last week where I managed to get more HPS out than normal, only reason in this case was that the DPS was slacking on the adds and there was a lot more damage going out than it usually would be.

    Logs are useful to look at but the things you want be looking at are things like are you casting things on cd (riptide/hst). Are you getting the most out of the talents you’ve chosen? If you feel you can’t make proper use of CBT I’d argue you’re better of with Echo for example. How much overheal do you have on specific spells? When you cast chain heal is it hitting all its targets? If you chain heal a lot you’re going to want to choose high tide as a general rule otherwise I’d stick with Ascedance or Wellspring.

    What strikes me when I look at your logs is the amount of healing surge use you have. There is, as a general rule, little reason to use healing surge unless someone is direct danger of dying, try weaving with healing wave instead. I also peeked at a mythic Nythendra kill and I noticed your Gift overheal is 68% (I peeked at a Heroic Ursoc kill and the usage there was much better). That’s a lot of wasted healing (unless you’re using it to buff tank HP). Your EST totem usage on that kill was also low (same on the heroic Ursoc kill and a quick run through shows me the same on other kills) and it didn’t shield much, if you find you can’t make proper use of it perhaps switch to vigor instead until you find you can get a grasp of where it will be useful to place. Same goes for CBT usage, if you’re unsure stick to Echo instead until you can get a grasp of when and how to use CBT to get the most mileage out of it.

    I noticed from your logs that you are using chain heal quite a bit but without high tide, perhaps try high tide for a while and see how it works out for you? If you want to stick to a single target build however, build around it in terms of stats, talents, spell usage, relics etc. and see how you go. If you can find a playstyle that works for you even if it isn’t a standard/popular build stick to it. If bosses die and you can get the most value from the talents you’ve choosen that’s, imho, the only things that matter.

    Read through the log analysis on the site as well, I think you’ll find it useful.

    I only briefly poked through your logs that’s why there’s not anything more specific. If you have any questions, queries or anything else just fire away. I hope I helped a little at least.

  • #3870

    miepsie
    Participant

    First of all, let me hug you 😀

    Thank you for taking the time.

    “You’ve highlighted the area where you feel you fall apart, chain heal centric healing and in all honesty if you feel more comfortable running a single target build there is no reason why you shouldn’t. If bosses die and you aren’t holding back progress I see no reason why you couldn’t run a single target build. You will always perform better within your comfort zone.”

    So this, this is weird. Because the playstyle that actually made me pick up shaman for my main was pretty much the old CBT+WS+ACG build I played during prepatch mostly. I really liked concentrating burst healing on the parts of the encounter that I felt like were the most dangerous. I enjoy doing that (when I don’t fuck it up ofc). It feels like being in control, anticipating what is going to happen, starting casts before the damage is even done. (yeah, I like ursoc, don’t judge me) 😀

    Eventually though, I decided the 30 second cooldown structure was too restrictive for me, I kept going out of sync with damage events during raid, and that just kills the whole build if you miss 2-3 “events”. Also when I tried catching people with surges I was always short that one decisive riptide and burnt through way too much mana way too quickly. Having echo solves that for me, I can riptide while I’m actually still dodging stuff myself and surge right after to catch someone else. I know this will probably change as soon as people make fewer mistakes, but right now, me catching people is what gets kills in the end, and I don’t think there will come a time where I raid with people who never step into anything ever… That would be quiet embarrassing because I myself certainly step into shit when my concentration starts breaking.

    —> This.

    “However, there are of course a few things to keep in mind. A single target build favours mastery and a chain heal centric build favours crit, then you of course have your hybrid builds which tend to run with mastery. There is great information on the different styles in the Legion hub section.”

    This was incredibly confusing to me. I had read the article already, but I thought it must have been out of date or something. Because I basicly have all the stats of all the styles in the article. I have 10% haste, I have 30% crit, and I have 120% mastery… So what style is that then? I do notice I have way too much mana in one fight, the perfect amount in another, and not enough in a third. Trying to swap trinkets to compensate doesn’t seem to be enough, and while I can certainly conserve a decent chunk by using surges more conservatively, it doesn’t seem to add up. Also I’m using chain heals of course, but not that many that I can spec into chain heal talents it feels like, because whenever I do, my burst healing suffers and people die. Perhaps I need to time my CBT better to compensate for the lack of ascendance/ag. I don’t know.

    “I also peeked at a mythic Nythendra kill and I noticed your Gift overheal is 68% (I peeked at a Heroic Ursoc kill and the usage there was much better). That’s a lot of wasted healing (unless you’re using it to buff tank HP).”

    On nythendra I honestly feel entirely useless as a healer. I get to heal one side wich is mixed ranged+melee, so even when there is damage it would only hit 3, maybe 4 targets in range to me. I can’t hug the damn dragon because melee dps needs space /rage6 and all, so I’m always off to the side, leaning towards the tanks, and when gotq comes off cooldown and there is no infection coming up, I just use it wherever. It doesn’t cost any mana. The entire fight is just super frustrating to me with the way that half the raid is out of reach for my healing. I’d rather spec enhancement for nythendra. I’m sure that shows in performance, it has to.

    Your EST totem usage on that kill was also low (same on the heroic Ursoc kill and a quick run through shows me the same on other kills) and it didn’t shield much, if you find you can’t make proper use of it perhaps switch to vigor instead until you find you can get a grasp of where it will be useful to place.

    I place it usually to soften damage. I’m not trying to get the max amount of shielding out of it, rather then trying to use it in situations where I believe someone could actually die. “APT light” on a lower cooldown. I should look at this. But I always feel as if vigor is just a wasted talent. Does it stack with gotq? That would change my opinion of it. Because I try to use gotq a lot for the hp increase. I end up timing it wrong, having the damage come in sooner then I expected and not being able to cast it until I have stabilized everyone, wich basicly destroys the whole plan and the point of it. In a perfect world I would start gotq before incoming damage hits, so that it finishes without overheal and I can get the gotq healing with my ascendance (I got that timing right a few times and it’s just insane. You can cast ascendance right after gotq and get the healing added into ascendance anyway, saving a lot of time and having a great start do follow up with raidwide heals. IF you get it right. If not, it just falls apart I guess. You can certainly not afford to start the cast when 5 people are already below 30%… I’ll have to thing about that.

    Something different though. I have seen a discipline priest on youtube who does video logs of his mythic+ runs to get better and analyse his gameplay, and I have a decent graphics card so I tried it myself. I didn’t save the logs so I can’t find the log that corresponds with the video, but I think I have found the perfect tool for me to improve. Just going through it once I found 5 things to work on straight away. With a log that would take me a long time, and I would never be entirely sure just why I made the mistakes that I made. In a video I can see why I cancelled this cast, and if another cast was truly necessary etc.

    Please excuse the terrible Audio.

    Apart from 2 glaringly obvious mistakes, I thought my healing surge/wave decisionmaking was pretty good. I should maybe consider lowering my crit, since I sat on a ton of mana all throughout the fight. At least I should’ve swapped out cocoon of enforced solitude for maybe heightened senses (Ursoc Haste+Int proc trinket) or maybe even Chrono shard. I picked cocoon because of the obvious “low damage” downtime the fight has, wich gives mayn opportunities to replenish mana. But I don’t need THAT much mana it turns out. Maybe you can spot some other stuff?

    Gotq was not used correctly ever, not even once. Maybe we as a raid should try to come together more after feeding time, and not be so spread out. But as it is I’d rather not use gotq even if it would be the ideal tool to precast right after running, adding +10%hp and pumping the heal into CBT (that should have been precast while running or just before).

    @2:10 my transition over to plattform 2 was terrible. Just plain bad. It looks like I forgot I had Gust of Wind skilled, wich is actually possible because I usually run wind rush totem. I can’t remember 100% but I think not getting the feather threw me off quiet a bit.

    @4:10 I didn’t expect the incoming damage. I could have probably saved the raid with Ascendance, wich I then decided to use when it was already way too late.

    So yeah. Thanks. I think I can find a lot of stuff to work on. I’m almost sure I should devalue crit right now. Maybe get a second set of gear for mythic+ with a lot of crit on it, and a raid set with a little less… not sure.

    Thank you for looking into this, I really appreciate it.

    Mieps 🙂

  • #3871

    nihilith
    Participant

    Just going to add a quick note. I’ll properly look through it when I have the time (and re-read, my brain takes a while to process written information).

    I feel you on the mythic Nyth, I feel pretty useless myself on that fight. And I like Ursoc too, such a wonderful fight for a resto shaman I feel, plus those CBT timings makes you feel semi-godly 😀

    The logic is that you go crit for chain heal so you won’t oom as fast (since chain healing is taxing on the mana) and a single target build won’t oom you as fast as you’ve noticed and thus mastery is generally more benefical for progress. Gear is also such that you can’t really decide what you get given so a lot of the time you’re just at the mercy of rng. Also some fights you’re just not going to chain heal as much due to the nature of the fights, no matter your build or stat usage.  Have you tried using Wellspring on the fights you’re finding yourself high on mana? I’ve not ran with it myself (almost only run with high tide). You could also trying using unleash life with chain heal and high tide for those burst phases if you can and see how that works out. It’s hard to say why your raid is dying to burst damage, that could be because raid cd’s aren’t being used effectively or the other healers aren’t preparing for it. I’ve not found a use for ascendance in raids myself yet (although not that far into mythics so this might change) but that could well just be a comp thing in all honesty (I often run with a second a resto shaman speced into ascendance).

    The thing with mana as well might just be because you’re running more healers than needed.

    I’ll look into the video, some more logs and re-read and think. This was just what came at me at the moment. Right now, lunch time!

  • #3874

    nihilith
    Participant

    I just looked through that video and as far as I can tell your raid team could make much better use of its healing cd’s. You could probably get away with using double cds for the vile ambushes (one aura mastery and either tide/tranq per ambsuh) then do that again for second spider form, they’ll be up by then. This is because you don’t need them for winds (since your paladin is solo soaking) and you don’t need them for gathering storm either (link should be enough here, if people die to being to far away, that’s a positioning issue that needs fixing on their end). You could of course save aura mastery for here if you want to play it safe and just after if tide and tranq are enough for the vile ambushes. WIll come with more stuff later, just wanted to say this since it was nagging in my brain 😀

  • #3876

    miepsie
    Participant

    Thanks 🙂 I can try talking to my raidlead maybe. I’m just trial in the raid/guild since I only joined a week ago, and we don’t really have a stable lineup yet, lots of randoms, so I don’t feel like giving out a lot of criticism right now. Not even sure if I’m a good fit in the guild atm.

    • #3880

      nihilith
      Participant

      I can try talking to my raidlead maybe. I’m just trial in the raid/guild since I only joined a week ago, and we don’t really have a stable lineup yet, lots of randoms, so I don’t feel like giving out a lot of criticism right now. Not even sure if I’m a good fit in the guild atm.

      I figured that might have been the case and I can understand why you wouldn’t want to do that. Just thought I’d point it out 🙂

      Oh, and AV and Gift do stack, just wanted to point that out (meant to earlier but it slipped my mind).

  • #3879

    ishkur
    Participant

    Wow. This level of discussions is superb! Hats off to both of you for this. I’ve read through it and I’all try to adapt something’s I learned from your discussion!

    Thank you!

  • #3884

    miepsie
    Participant

    I have switched around a few weights and made a pawn set for dungeon healing (crit heavy) and a pawn set for raid (mastery heavy). Of course I’m bound by the items I have, but I went from 30.5% crit to 24%, from 10.5% haste to 12.3 and from 86.5% mastery to 92.6. (I always thought mana management was my strong suite, so it really doesn’t make sense to stack so much crit. I blame AskMrRobot ofc. For -everything-.)

    That should help I think, and further item drops will probably make it more apparent.

    Since AV stacks with gotq (duh) it’ll become my new default I guess. Keeping people alive is my no.1 goal after all.

    I will check out unleash+deluge+cbt+hightide and see how that goes in the HC raid today. I’ll probably miss my cooldowns, but I’ll be busy enough trying to time healing rain for cbt+chainheal in a way that makes sense, having to push unleash aswell, so I guess I still won’t get bored. ^_^ I’ll update when I have tried it, since I guess some people find this interesting aswell. I’m fine one my own for now though, thank you for all the usefull input, I’ll have to go and play a for a while no to figure things out.

    EDIT: Since I don’t have any chain heal supporting legendaries, and I plan on practicing timings rather then dropping cbt every 30, I swap deluge for AG. Seems to be more usefull anyway. (great article on the main site btw.)

    Great community here 🙂 Thanks guys.

    -Mieps

  • #3887

    nihilith
    Participant

    Trying things out sounds like a sound thing to do. I hope you find a playstyle that suits you and that you feel comfortable with. You have so much insight and I feel that for the most part it’s just finding a place you feel comfortable in (hence my more philosophical ramblings than practical ones, also caught me in a rambling mood today). I’d love to hear how you get on, I’ve had some thoughts myself on things since reading what you’ve written and the thoughts you have regarding various things, new input is always refreshing I find. Onward to trying other things I go! And yes, that CBT article is fantastic!

  • #3891

    miepsie
    Participant

    I could only play around with it during normal raid, wich is completely pointless. But I think I can get used to it. Had to play enhancement offspec during HC because we wanted to try out a few new healers and my dps was pitiful since I don’t have good gear for enhancement.

    The feeling I got was that this spec is excellent at stabilizing the raid after heavy damage, whereas the spec I played before was excellent at saving single people or just a small group. Thats why I’ll probably stick with it for dungeons, because I don’t think I can push more or less instantly 500-600k hps for 20 seconds on a group of 5 using chainheal and cbt… We actually use that when boosting mos +5/+6 keys for 3 chests, pulling everything up to the first boss, including the boss, and then I just go crazy with all the heal cds. It’s a lot of fun, you should try it if you haven’t. (don’t try it with bolstering though)

    I hope the mythic raid tomorrow goes well, maybe I have some logs then.

    Also, if you experiment with anything, would be awesome if you could share. Even if it didn’t work out.

  • #3893

    ishkur
    Participant

    @miepsie from what i read through your last few posts, i nfigure AMR is not good? I’ve been using it for my resto shaman as well and it suggested me to go full crit. And I am unable to compete with kther healers in our guild (a holy priest and druid). I’ve been trying to improve my game but do you think, number wise, i should stop using AMR entirely? i like the chain heal style though.

  • #3894

    miepsie
    Participant

    Warning, this will be severely off topic.

    Hi Ishkur. Well. First of all I want you to know that I don’t think I’m really qualified to answer that question with any level of confidence. I don’t KNOW what AMR does. I only assume. If you want a good answer, ask someone who actually knows the inner workings of AMR. So -disclaimer-. There.

     

    I assume AMR does what most simulators are forced to do: It runs a bot that does a preset number of things on a preset number of conditions. Maybe they actually simulate a bossfight, with all the mechanics and player reactions involved, with rDD and mDD bots doing their thing, maybe getting hit by stuff, standing and running, and the healBOT script healing them. I don’t know this.

    What I know is, in order for any kind of measurement to take place, you have to run a simulation.

    Anyone coming up with that simulation is going to have to face a ton of choices looking at all the variables that go into a Raidencounter, and the options are always twofold:

    You look at things like: (Raidsize, Raid rDPS, Raid mDPS, mechanics that force movement, how long the fight takes, prepots, margin of error for every simulated player involved, how often to people have to cancel their casts, how often does melee have to switch targets, how much stuff is there that is randomly distributed damage, anything else that might play into it)

    Looking at all those possibilities the choice is: Safe resources and make the variable a fixed value, maybe some kind of average pulled from real life data. Or simulate it with something they feel is realistic, maybe also based on averages pulled from real life logfiles, running it few hundret times, and average the outcome of those simulations.

    To understand where this started you have to realize that most simulators started with simple DPS rotations, you could maybe even set up a margin of error for human delay, and maybe the simulator even had a knob to tell it special stuff, like “hey, you know I have AOE situations in this fight”, stuff like that. People knew they would never actually reach the numbers that the simulator told then were possible, but it was still worthwhile, because all they wanted to know was how to MAX the amount of dps during the time that they would be able to dps like a bot. I know I have to do other stuff aswell, but if I find out what numbers give me the most flat out stupid DPS, I still get to know what values are best for me, as long as I’m exactly simulating the rotation that I am actually using “most of the time” at least.

    But healing is different. You can’t just min/max healing per second over a 10 minute fight and be done with it. You may have the perfect rotation for that, and last exactly 10 minutes, but as soon as you get a 5 minute fight and there is someone who knows how to get more HPS out of his almost double manapool (5 to 10 minutes -5 minutes of mana regen) that person is going to outperform you by a lot. Sure, it won’t be as efficient, but after 5 minutes with your 10 minute rotation you will sit there with 45% mana left over, and he or she will have dumped all that mana into additional healing that would not have lasted 10 seconds beyond that. And this is just one of the more blatant ways to demonstrate a difference. How big is the raid? The rogue simulating his DPS rotation doesn’t care. But you care. A lot! How much unavoidable damage is there per second? Is your 10 minute average HPS even enough to heal that, or do you HAVE to have burst healing as well in order to even survive the encounter? The simulator would get super complex, super fast. And simulating a different bossfight would probably mean at least rewriting and retuning the script for the whole thing, every single time…

    So…. what DOES AMR actually simulate? I have no idea. You can set up Strategies and run simulations on your own system to try things out, but as far as I know there is actually no way to view or edit the “boss fights” that are being simulated… I mean those here:

    Long story short: I think AMR is GREAT. I love it. It is a tool for measurement where no tool for measurement exists, and as such, even an inaccurate measurement is better then no measurement at all. You just have to be careful that you don’t religiously believe in everything it tells you, especially if you don’t know the basis of how it came to believe that.

    If it gave me something like: “Here, those are THE best stats to heal through a 10 minute enounter with no movement, using all your mana and achieving maximum HPS on average throughout the fight” I’m like “great, so know I just need to adjust in my head for 3 phases of burst damage and about 1 minute total of 3-5 seconds movement, and the fact that the fight actually only lasts for 6:30 with the lineup we run”

    3 Phases of burst would then mean “3 events where Mastery is valuable”. Since 3-5 seconds of movement means that even moderate incoming damage will stack up on everyone, assuming you are not all playing resto druid, Mastery gets additional value, even if it’s just single digit percentile. Now the fight is 6:30 you burnt, let’s say, 15% extra mana healing bursty stuff in a way that was mana inefficient, that leaves you with 3:30 minutes minus 15% Mana left over. As you can see, you are totally going to do feelycrafting at this point, and the only thing usefull to do is to trust your gut and check out if your assumptions are actually correct.

    You may end up wanting less crit, or if you are unable to adjust that, you may want to heal more mana inefficient at least, to actually make use of the crit instead of having it translate into left over mana at the end of the fight. In both cases though, mastery might become more valuable.

    The thing that comes up a lot is that: “Mastery (in our case) is for progression” what that means is: Mastery is for healing people who take damage, who are on the edge of not being able to complete the encounter. Lots of low HP = great for mastery. Fights last longer, so you can’t just burst heal 3-4 events and be done with it, you actually start thinking about efficiency a lot more, healers are going oom trying to deal with mechanics and maybe even compensate for mistakes.

    The way you play determines what stats are worth to you. And the way you play will very likely change over time. That is why I think AMR statweights are bs. It is not cookiecutter one size fits all, those times are long gone, not even DPS classes have that anymore. They too have to reevaluate their rotations and statweights with every change, be it in gear or be it in playstyle+encounter length (due to increased dps). I think AMR should do a better job of informing people about what they actually simulate, and what that means. But I still love the tool, I am actually subscribed to it even though I barely have money for that kind of stuff.

    </rant>

    EDIT: One more thing I want to say. If you really want a good answer, you will have to talk to the people that actually know how AMR simulates things, or how Simcraft, or any other tool, simulates things. Everyone else, like me, is just speculating. I have zero inside knowledge about that, for all I know they could be rolling dice, picking a random warcraft log and averaging those numbers just as well as running thousands of simulations and statistical calculations every minute with a tool that was originally developed for cancer research and uses deep learning techniques, evolving algorythms, AI and what not because the programmer is a bored super genious intern at google who graduated in computer science at the age of 12. I really have no idea.

    Take care,

    Mieps

  • #3900

    miepsie
    Participant

    Back to topic!

    @nihilith So I asked for permission to post this Cenarius log from shaman Discord

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/PaJF6fvnxTYM9LK7#type=healing&source=16

    this is pure CBT feeding, during progress no less. In this log both ^focuser of jonat and nobundo were involved though. I have to wonder how viable this is without those two, but really, holy cow this is powerful.

    (gave me joy to see EST being used. I think I’ll go back to that totem from time to time, and just practice placing is more effectively in stacked fights, choosing AV vs EST based on how spread we are during damage)

    So this is scary: 573,886.0 HPS over a 4:22 second fight, and he has almost 50% mana left over in the end with healing surge being the second biggest source of healing. Holy cow. So like,… are those artifacts basicly mandatory?

    At least it’s clear to me now that you can very much heal a progression raid on CBT instead of multiple healing CDs like ascension, if you learn to time the CBT correctly. Just wow. This is the chainheal cast + cbt cast numbers. The overheal numbers… I have to practice. A lot.

    • #3909

      nihilith
      Participant

      I agree for dungeons that’s what I would run with too for the most part. I run with Torrent or Und, Waves or AG (mostly Waves though), Echo and Ascendance (or did when mythics were new). I don’t run mythic+ sadly (for various reasons). I’d like to but I don’t think I could find a group for it. Though normal mythics are so easy now (gear inflation) I tend to just stick with Torrent, Waves, Echo and High Tide, mostly because it fits well with doing most things and I can hit things with lava when bored. I read what you wrote on mythic dungeon talents, very insightful and helpful.

      EST for Cenarius would probably be the way to go I think, I can just look at our heroic logs and compare mine (AV) to our other resto shaman running EST, it’s great even on heroic due to the ticking damage from the stacking debuff, hence why I’ve heard rumours it’s good on dragons and nyth if people are stacked enough for it, for the same reason. It can most likley be used in other situtations as well, for me AV is a personal choice more than anything (I might feel different on mythic Cenarius, when I get there) and also since we often run a 2 resto shaman comp I just feel it’s more useful to spread around the talents a bit.

      Focuser ring helps, a ton from what I’ve understood, sadly I don’t have it myself but it will skew things for sure, same will things like innervates/symbol of hope (I think there’s a top resto shaman Ursoc ranking with some silly number of innervates). Same for the bracers and surge usage, this would be an occassion where using surge would more viable than any other time.

      But yeah that low overheal 😀

      I tried a really weird hybrid build for mythic Nyth last night, didn’t pan out how I’d hoped (was running Und/AG/Echo/Tide). I thought I could get more use out of Und than I did (was also curious to see how it would work out in a more chain heal centric build, not as well as I wanted was the answer to that one sadly, which I expected in all honesty, I was mostly curious theroy vs practice and all).

      On our heroic Ursoc kill (we should drop healers for that one too I feel, I ran as dps for the first few bosses) I managed to get awesome timed CBT’s  with little overheal, although I managed to compensate with shitty Gift usage (we changed our positioning strat and my insomniac brain was very unhappy with that and got all confused) I also swapped out from standard CBT to Echo for heroic Xavius and managed to pull roughly the same numbers as I do with CBT (note on the 405k parse, people were being derps and not killing adds so those are mastery inflated). If you want to peek for comparison you can see here: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/14500305/latest#metric=hps&boss=1864&bracket=-1

       

  • #3906

    ishkur
    Participant

    Dear miespie,

     

    Thank you very much for your insight. it is a very great read! im sorry for derailling you from your main topic though.

     

    I am sitting at ilvl 866 with 31k int, 33% crit and 76% mastery. I am playing the chain heal style but my performance is not very good. Thus i stalk your ropic to get more knowledge.

     

    Thank you again for taking ur time answering me 🙂

  • #3919

    miepsie
    Participant

    This discussion has helped me a ton. We killed nythendra and renferral today and managed to get a few ursoc tries in aswell with the new guild lineup (we merged with another guild who had the same issues).

    It’s a bit difficult when two different raids merge, tactics clashing and two raidleaders discussing, but I think we managed fine. (Also having RClootcouncil is nice, since nobody feels left out when “both” former raidleads have a vote)

    Anyway,… I wasn’t even close to being comfortable with the new spec. Gotq was never lined up correctly, healing rain casts during cbt, and cbt not lining up with any significant damage half of the time, as well as misstimed AG. Facing so many things I had to learn again I decided to drop EST for now, and get back to it once I am somewhat comfortable with CBT mechanics again. I still have to actively think about it at all times, and that really shows.

    But I wanted to share this, because I feel it’s an important lesson I learned: Log rankings are a fun thing to play at, but they are not a measure of how well you do as a healer. I had this discussion with @ishkur this morning, and I told him he should pay less attention to rankings and HPS spam, and maybe try to do a video and analyze his moment to moment actual decision making durin the raid to determine if he can improve anything.

    And I think I will take my own advice. Still, I managed to put out a lot more healing when we needed it, and the ursoc fight… damn that fight is awesome for cbt.

    For anyone interested, I will share the video. It’s messy, and I think I played pretty bad, but I can see a lot of potential so I will just keep practicing 🙂

    Thank you all for your feedback!

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/CXqRNpDMLAfnm89g#fight=33&type=healing

  • #3924

    nihilith
    Participant

    I agree with your sentiment about the logs when it comes to the ranking part it’s not the be all end all of anything really, the other things like casts, uptimes, overheals etc. are what is useful to know. I use it mostly to check am I casting x ability at an appoproate time, how is my mana usage, my uptimes, overhaling and all those tasty things, for me that’s easier to do in written format, a video has (for me) too much information I can’t sort properly (different brains do things well, differently). I mostly posted my own to show that whilst CBT is great if used properly it won’t make or break anything (I was also suprised myself, going to run more Echo and see how I get on).

    I think it’s great advice though, to use a video, if you find it helps you more than logs then go for it, as I usually say there is only one right way to do things and that’s the way that works for you, even if it isn’t something that works for others. I process my own information better through reading it and looking at logs, but that’s because I have a hard time sorting visual information.

    Yeah, it is, once I managed to get the timings down on heroic it made such a difference, we whacked it on mythic last night some after spiderbird died (I dps’ed though so no healing to test sadly). Spiderbird is such a mess of fight, I mostly felt like I was flailing around trying to smash boss, hehe. Hopefully I get to heal Ursoc next week (we only raid two nights so all done for the week) it seems so awesome to heal, dpsing it is meh though, just hit things and move, not super engaging. The prot paladin in your raid isn’t solo soaking winds 😮 That seems so odd to me.

  • #3927

    miepsie
    Participant

    Maybe it came across that way, but I don’t think Vids replace Logfiles. I will most certainly keep looking at both.

    But when I have, say, this situation: I get knocked back by entangled players a lot, and I want to know if it’s my fault or if some DH that was entangled suddenly leaped through half the raid…

    I look at the Video it takes me 2 seconds to see “yup, my faul. Shouldn’t have stood there.”. With a Log it might well not be something I can answer.

    But with another thing, like “how is my riptide uptime/casting?” I’m not going to sit through a video with a paper sheet and a calculator making marks, counting them and compare them to time/cooldown, I’m just going to look at the logs. In reverse that would have taken me ages looking at the video, and only seconds looking at the logs.

    So I’m not going to stop looking at either, although, maybe I should, I dreamt of Spiderbirds last night. Maybe I should see a psychiatrist. 😛

    Cheers,

    Miepsie

  • #3928

    nihilith
    Participant

    Naw, it didn’t come across that way I was just going off on a rambling streak (as I do when sleep deprived).

    I see your point though, it’s very useful in that regard, to look at a video to check things like what you mentioned.  Oh, yeah, that web thing, I was being flown all over on spiderbird until we changed how we dealth with webbed folks. Webbed people going to spider adds and standing far apart is unfun, hehe.

    You know you’ve been overdoing it when you start dreaming WoW, that happens far too often to me, erhm.

  • #3947

    miepsie
    Participant

    Ah, I guess I should maybe post this log.

    All the advice has been working out nicely for me.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/vZdLCgt1qxhVy6rP#fight=20&type=healing

    if you activate the healers on graph you can tell right away that we had “charge” duty sorted out, so I wasn’t as flexible as I would’ve liked, but…

    25 riptide casts in 5minutes is definetly not fine. I think it should be closer to 40-45 with a theoretical max of 51 casts I think… Also not sure about stacking AG+HTT on second,… maybe use AG more flexible, since the fight won’t ever go for 6 minutes, so I don’t have to worry about a third potential cooldown going to waste. I think it was overkill with HTT and baited me into using too much mana inefficiently early on. (was fun to see that I could reach 1,250 HPS peaks though :D) but 41% overheal on HTT is just sad, expecially since I have all the healing relevant artifact traits (the one with stacking +heal% on HTT aswell). I need to think more about how / when to place HTT in order to get the most out of that trait I guess.

    Btw… do you think it’s okay for me to give other people some feedback aswell? I’m not sure if I’m good enough yet myself. I feel as if I’m only just starting to spot all the things I could improve, and I don’t have a lot of log reading experience… Feels weird to give advice to anyone. At the same time there aren’t a lot of people reading logs right now right?

    cheers

    Mia

  • #3950

    nihilith
    Participant

    I looked at the logs and I wonder, is there a reason you and the druid cast your cd’s at the same time (04:30 roughly)? Unless it’s needed there that would be a reason your HTT overheals so much at the end there. And I agree, 41% overheal is a lot, that could for sure be used more wisely. I personally find riptide is one of those things that can get pushed to the side when you scramble to heal people in high pressure situations, I struggle with that myself and I look at my own logs and go “Damn you brain, riptide is a thing to be cast, it’s not that hard, gawh.” it just needs to comply more often I feel.

    I’ve yet to progress as healer on mythic Ursoc (maybe this week, we’ll see) but my personal plan is to use AG for CBT feeding mostly (as I usually do when specced into CBT/AG). Although, I’m still debating if I should go bottomless depths on Ursoc or not. I was setting up charge cd’s for our team and came to the conclusion that damn, a druid would be nice (our druid and former heal lead stopped playing a few weeks back, sad times) for the 2min tranq, have non cd’ed charge to deal with, should be interesting.

    Glad to hear the advice has been working out for you. I think it’s definitely okay for you to give feedback if you feel you can contribute. I see it like this: it’s a community where we help eachother out so if you feel you have advice to give, give away. Almost everyone has room for improvement (playing perfect is unattainable for the most part since, well being human tends to be a thing) and even if you know the theory, practice is sometimes where things can fall apart. I can go to myself for example, I know different areas where I have room for improvement, I also know that I’m limited as to how much I can improve (I have some cognitive disabilities that are limiting, especially in high stress situations). What I’m trying to say is this, we’re all learning and if you spot things that could be helpful share away. I personally learnt the most about logs when I started reading other peoples way back in Firelands I was in charge of log evalution for my then guild.

    And no there aren’t. Mostly I think because it’s time consuming. I personally don’t always have the time nor the available energy to do so. And how in-depth I look into the logs depends on the logs and my own energy capacity for that day. So, the more people that can contribute is awesome I think.

    Out of curosity (you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to, just say so) which country are you from?

  • #3977

    miepsie
    Participant

    Hi nihilith, thank you for taking another look, and thank you for your kind answer.

    I’m in a hospital for a few more days, but I didn’t want to wait days before answering, so now I’m using my phone. I have a lot of time to type, but it’s still not much fun. So sorry if my answer is a bit short 🙂

    I’m from germany btw.

    The 4:30 heal stacking is probably mostly because it was a first kill, so whdn we had good damage and most dd alive at 4:30 we were just throwing out everything for another 30 seconds of dps. The fight is on a timer, so we weren’t worried about having to endure another phase.

    I think wow is just this silly thing for me right now. I need something to focus on, something to keep me busy, so I sink everything into healing in wow, and improving as much as I can. Maybe I’ll keep at it, but honestly, my hope is something way more important takes it’s place at some point. Not having a life besides wow and all isn’t such a good thing if you really look at it. ^_^ but for as long as that is still the case, I’m curious what I can achieve. So that is my motivator. Not a cognitive disability, but I use it to get over a bad phase, so depression doesn’t eat me alive 🙂

    Last time it was starcraft2,… Dota… Wow. Always something. ^^ keeps me sane. Being limited in some way is just life. I hope you are well, take care, and thanks. Also curious now why you wanted to know where I was from, and  where you are from? Maybe I can’t find it on my tiny phone screen, but I think there is no profile page whith those details…

  • #3986

    nihilith
    Participant

    I figured it might have been that. I went back and looked at both of the tides and they both overhealed quite a bit, though the last one more (not surprising though due to the Tranq). That could be that the other healers are healing more than they need to at that time and not letting the tide do it’s job. Healing is such a synergy game I find. The longer you play together the more you learn the others playstyles and learn to trust them, though it takes time.

    WoW is a wonderful thing in that regard I find, myself I use it a lot to pass the time since I have oodles of free time at the moment. Also great for when you just want to forget about the world for while. It will get less for myself over time I hope too, I’m finding some energy creeping back to do other things that I’m passionate about, which is a good thing.

    It was your name, Mia, that made me curious. There isn’t that info in the profile thing, I’m Swedish by the way 🙂 I hope you feel better soon!

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