February 1, 2017 at 21:35 #4711
First off, you guys did a great job on the show! It was awesome to see some high knowledge going out about resto shams. Most of the people I raid/group with have no clue what I am talking about when it comes to healing, so it is nice to see other healers come together. Second, Canibehealz, I think we would prob be best friends if we got to know each other. We both have love for the resto sham and pizza! (My guild note is actually pizza connoisseur. :))
Alittle back story – I have been rest sham since HFC and played it for years back in BC and Wraith. I switched to priest before WoD and actually lost interest all together when it came to playing WoW. A few months later I came back lvled my sham and haven’t looked back since. I have always enjoyed the resto sham kit and play style. I am currently progressing through Heroic NH. I was lucky enough to get the ring and have the belt for legendaries. Since I got the ring, I have moved to more of a CH play style.
Now that that is done, I had a few questions/comments about the show and hoping to get some thoughts from you guys.
Talents- I will be trying out Unleash Life tonight with my build. I never really saw it as beneficial due to how weak it seemed in the beginning. For the most part I have ran Torrent due to the belt. I am interested in comboing that with the ring for more CH.
Recently I switched to Deluge for more CH. I think that NH has a lot more fights were I find it really usable. In EN, I didn’t find a lot of fights where it seemed to work well. I was also not a huge user of Healing Rain. Again, due to a lot of movement I found it to be a big mana spender for little healing. Before I used Crashing Waves for more Tidal Waves. I still do not have my 2-piece, but I am still considering switching back due to the bonus healing plus it would still be building stacks for Jonat’s. Did you guys have any thoughts on that?
Tier Pieces – On the show you guys talked about which tier pieces to go for. You listed the cloak as the top one. I currently have the cloak off of Maiden at 860ilvl with socket. I find it really hard to believe that the tier cloak is better. Thoughts? (I am also not a fan of haste. I try to stay between 5-7%. Anything more I feel like I am just wasting mana.) I am also a EoE user. I have tried using Cloudburst, but I do not enjoy the play style. I am not a fan of the “window,” which is the same reason I am not a fan of Arms. With that being said, is the 4 piece bonus really worth it? I am already constantly paying attention to the CD of HST to make sure I am getting the most out of it. The 4 piece seems like I would be wasting the bonus with EoE. Plus, I am not a fan of the stats on a lot of tier pieces. I know Vers isn’t terrible, but it is such a boring stat to me. I would rather focus on other pieces from NH or M+.
Thank you for all that you guys do!!
February 2, 2017 at 00:33 #4712
First and foremost, thanks for the support and tuning in to the show! 🙂 Its always great to hear some feedback regarding things that we all do in the community. Your support is greatly appreciated!
The quickest and easiest question to answer, so I’ll jump to it first, is your question regarding tier.
Even though the tier bonuses are boring, and the stats on the gear are simply not “ideal” in the mind of a Resto Shaman, the bonuses themselves are strong. Regardless of talenting Echo, your HST uptime will increase. There is no limit to the number of HSTs you can have active at any one time, so there is no reason to talent into or avoid Echo just because of a tier bonus. As long as youre watching your HST cooldown and hitting it on cooldown, you will very rarely, if ever, waste the reduction in cooldown gained from the tier set. HST, when dropped on cooldown, will make up anywhere from ~3-6% of your total healing done from fight to fight, and the tier set increases your HST uptime by anywhere from ~70-100%, effectively doubling its output when used to its absolute maximum. Combine this with increasing the frequency in which we have Caress of the Tidemother active for 10% DR and youre actually really saving some damage taken.
With regards to Drape of Shame from Maiden in Karazhan, its certainly an interesting and powerful piece of gear, admittedly so for anyone focusing on the strength of Chain Heal in a raid because of relying more upon Critical Strike to proc passives. The raw straight to the point fact is that the kind of math associated with Drape of Shame value vs X Y Z cloak of any item level (and often the kind of math many ask about regarding stat weights and Pawn and the like) is the kind of math that you don’t exactly apply to healers. Too many variables go into healing, especially contributing to the strength of a Shamans Mastery, to be able to math out the specific strength for a stat or effect like “Increases the effectiveness of your Critical healing by 10%” for any given encounter before the encounter has already been completed. There are log analysis tools out there that will give a rough estimate of the strength AFTER the fact, but healing cannot be simulated (outside of setting super specific variables that will obviously change in real time) for a Shaman it can only be analyzed.
To the point; the Drape of Shame has some approximate values out there for other classes, and they should not be taken as fact for a Resto Shaman. The cloak is so incredibly powerful for Holy Paladins that they will never take it off but that is because they have a built in modifier to their crit for their spells and many passives that make up the entirety of their specialization. Its safe to say that the cloak would see approximately the same value as a cloak about 30-35 or so ilevels above it but when factoring in that the tier cloak has good stats and most importantly life saving stats, its a no brainer.
A good example of the value of the Drape of Shame is a script that is floating around giving the approximate value of the Drape vs the Intellect gained by using a cloak of a greater ilevel. This script is used by druids to find approximately how much Intellect they need on a cloak before they can drop a Drape of Shame and thats because their secondary stats are valued so closely together for general raiding use that outside of a specifically Mastery heavy 5 man build, they would need a high ilevel off cloak to wear instead of Drape. Shamans, however, value Mastery heavily during progression because of its lifesaving power and Mastery, in critical conditions, far outweighs the value of Intellect by a factor of more than two meaning that the Mastery on the tier cloak, when it matters (ie target is in need of healing) will further increase the Tier cloaks value.
In an ideal world of having the best gear out there, you’ve got two “best” options. (keeping in mind that this will hardly ever happen because the game is very random now because of WF/TF gearing, its quite possible that you wont want to give up a couple of high ilevel pieces etc etc)
Tier Helm, Cloak, Chest, Legs with the Suramar 2p (Shoulders and Bracers) and Tidecallers Legendary Gloves.
Tier Helm, Shoulders, Chest, Legs with a high rolled Drape of Shame and Tidecallers Legendary Gloves.
Don’t forget, while not ideal its important to realize that all secondary stats will increase our healing output and we favor Mastery over others because of its strength when people are critically injured. Versatility is a flat healing increase and damage reduction resulting in less healing needing to be done and Haste linearly scales all our “over-time” effects and reduces our GCD for all those instant cast spells we have in our toolkit. Those are good things!
Finally, a point to remember is that *generally speaking* Legendary items should not dictate how you talent. Talents should be chosen to counter raid mechanics or encounter design more than anything else. If an encounter has very little movement and a stacked raid, perhaps Deluge will be valued more to increase the healing output of your Chain Heal. If the encounter has several scripted heavy damage phases, maybe Ascendance will see use to help your raid get through a tricky spot where you just need that little bit of extra cooldown healing. Talents are subjective to playstyle and encounter much more than Legendary item or set bonus gearing. Remember, just because you have Jonats doesn’t mean that Unleash Life or High Tide will be best for those situations. If youre hardly casting Chain Heal, then theres no reason to really build your entire healing toolkit around it.
I hope that this has been informative, and again, thank you so much for the continued support. As I just said on Twitter after the show on Sunday, we in the community couldn’t keep doing what we do without the support from everyone – other players most of all.
February 2, 2017 at 20:07 #4816
I agree with Canibehealz’s assessment of the 4 set. I was lucky enough (for once) to get my 4 set the very first week on NH. I run EoE with my HST and average about 20 casts durring a 6 min encounter. This number could be higher but I don’t run HST 100%. when the raid is topped off, as I prefer to conserve my mana and spot heal or dps. However considering that HST heals an average of 1M+ per cast, losing a few of our preferred stats to double its up time is a win win for sure.
Logs posted as reference. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/qYpTHAWbQhxDVd7F/#type=healing&fight=7&source=9
February 2, 2017 at 21:48 #4820
Thank you for the quick response! I have been coming to this website since I heard about you on Final Boss last year (or 2), I think its awesome what you guys do. I know a lot of classes do not have this type of resource. I know it could be useful for a number of classes, so I am thankful that you guys do this.
I would like to say I don’t believe the bonuses are boring, just that the stats seem so off. Personally, as some one who runs + all the time, I love the 2 piece bonus. I do my best to cast HW/HS with a Tidal Waves as much as possible. So it is just an added bonus to it. Ok, I will go hunting for the 4-piece. I was able to get the cloak last night so I did get 2-piece. I guess I never realized how much of our healing actually came from that. And @hobotopia I see what you are saying. I had 10 HST on that fight, which I am sure could have been more, but that accounted for 10mil alone. Trilliax I don’t expect to compete as I am that player who tries to do everything possible in a fight. So my happy ass is running around most of the time getting fat and making sure nothing blows up.
I have seen one of these scripts that was supposed to give an “ilvl” of the bonus you got from the DoS effect. I think it took a look at your intellect and crit level to determine it. I can see how it would become convoluted to actually put a number on it with how our mastery works. You would never have the same result twice. When it is broken out, it makes much more sense! I do go for Mastery>Crit>Haste>/=Vers in my build. I will have to keep more of an open mind when it comes to stat weights.
With the way the game is now, I think it is hard to ever have “BiS” items. I have seen these lists, but that seems like a “in the perfect world” type of thing. And I was lucky to get the ring, I am not getting my hopes up for the gloves!
I try not to let the ring dictate the talents that I take. Other than Deluge, I haven’t really changed the talents I take for raid. In the beginning I messed around to see if I could do better, but since then I have stayed with my choices. I think this could be part of my issue sometimes. I am stuck in my ways of the old days where you had one set tree. I do switch it up for +, but generally speaking I stay with the same setup for raid. I think I saw this the most last night on Heroic Spellblade. I had went with High Tide, but I think after killing it, Ascendance would have been a better choice for the extra CD.
Thank you again for the quick response and all the info! It was very informative. I will continue to come here and support what you guys do. If there is anything I can do to return the favor, let me know!
- This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by Honnon.
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